DEI expert interview: Zoe Kennedy (King’s College London)

Zoe Kennedy is senior culture, equality, diversity and inclusion manager at the Institute of Psychiatry, Psychology and Neuroscience, King’s College London.

Q: What are you doing to tackle the backlash against DEI? 

We have been lucky not to have too much backlash in the faculty and part of that is because we have made a lot of impact in the last 10-15 years. The vast majority, if not every person within our faculty, which has about 1,600 staff and 5,000 students, have benefited from our DEI work in some way or another. Our senior leaders are brilliant and they know they are making better decisions for the faculty because of the DEI input, advice and support we are giving them.

I think we have quite a good reputation. There is a lot of trust with the team and understanding that we are changing things to benefit people. Our work focuses on how we can change the policies and systems that, day-to-day, make people feel included. We talk about inclusion as an action – which helps to keep all that negative stuff happening out there away from what we are doing. It helps counter some of the media headlines that are anti-DEI.  

We try not to get distracted by the media headlines that are attacking our work – we made a strategic decision a few years ago that we just can’t comment on every horrible or negative thing that happens in the world, because that distracts us from the real work of changing organisations to be better places and more inclusive for everyone.  

Q: Do we need to rebrand DEI? Why (not)? 

DEI is complex and as an industry we do an excellent job of bringing in big, heavy concepts and acronyms. We have EDI, DEI, JEDI, so many names… Changing the name will confuse people even more and that could be off-putting for people in the middle who just want a better environment but also read the headlines.  

I err on the side of, no, we do not need to rebrand but rather change the way DEI work is delivered. DEI is full of people with vast amounts of belief and passion for creating a better world. The flip side of that is that people come into the industry to deliver change because of their lived experience of discrimination. This can mean that lived experience gets overplayed and so as an industry we don’t always have people with the skills, knowledge, and expertise to understand and change the system that caused that  discriminationor different types of discrimination in the first place for the benefit of everyone.  

Creating action based on, ‘I was discriminated against – I am going to go and change that experience of discrimination,’ can create a blind spot and can be a little alienating to people who have difference experiences or just want to know how to be more inclusive in their practice. For example, a white man, may go, ‘Yes, I think I have benefited from some systems and I don’t agree with how some things are run but I don’t know what to do about it.’ But when coming into a DEI space they might feel, ‘Oh, this space isn’t for me because I haven’t personally been discriminated against.’ This approach and experience can be counter-productive to driving change but can often be what happens. 

As an industry we need to move past centring lived experience so much to bring more people into the work. Also, if we are focusing too much on lived experience, we can end up taking a polarised view on a certain topic rather than focusing on creating the skills people need within an organisation on how to hold different views but also work together in an inclusive and supportive way. 

Q: Where have you seen inclusion make the biggest impact?  

Probably just having DEI hold an equal seat at the table and being able to ask, ‘Do we think this is the right thing? Can we pause and think about it?’ In our work, we tend to focus on inclusion as an action and I often use an example of when you are at a networking function and someone comes to join you, you have to step back to create space for that person – that’s inclusion. Having DEI at the table helps people to shift their mindset to seeing inclusion as an action so that when they are making decisions they think about what they need to do to make space for someone else or for a different perspective or a different element they may not have considered previously. 
 

Q: Which industry do you believe is most successful at implementing DEI? Why? 

I have only worked in DEI within higher education. The reality of DEI is that it’s not easy but it can be easier to drive change within higher education as I have student activism knocking on my door going, ‘This content isn’t inclusive,’ or ‘The buildings aren’t set up for everyone.’ That active voice can be really powerful and is helpful in driving change. The other side of that is that higher education does not have a huge amount of money which can constrain delivering on that activism and drive for change.  

Public sector industries are doing quite well but that is likely because the legal framework requires them to do it and has been pushing them in that direction for a long time. In other industries like finance and law, where there is more money, you can do more – you can get more people through training and have more structures and systems you can embed it in.  

But I sometimes I wonder if other sectors that present themselves as successful at DEI are actually successful. I wonder are they successful because they have the budget to tell me that they are implementing DEI and being successful Or are they actually successful at implementing DEI?  

Q: What business area do you think is in most need of DEI training?  

I think everyone needs more DEI training than they currently get. But I also think the DEI industry’s approach to DEI training is problematic because we take this approach that we will put some slides up, we will send everyone on the same training, and therefore they are ‘trained’ in DEI. In my faculty we have people whose whole career and focus is on one very niche part of the body. The reality is that they don’t care about an hour of DEI training or protected characteristics because it is not their passion or interest or necessarily relevant to their role and everyday job. 

We need to get far better at adapting our training for those areas. For example, talking about that research, we could ask what happens when that research is done, who benefits, and who else might also benefit that’s currently not? For a malaria vaccine, it’s about getting them to think about the infrastructure where malaria happens because it is going to be different to a lab in London. So, we need to tailor our DEI training to meet these specific contexts to drive buy-in, relevance and change.  

We also have issues around consistent line management. Like many industries, you get good on the technical and promoted to leading a team but can then flounder a bit. Again, just having one-hour DEI training for everyone is not going to help that line manager be a better line manager and be more inclusive in their management. The DEI industry needs to be far more adaptable and targeted in training and talk to the people whose hearts and minds need to be shifted rather than just what DEI practitioners want to tell people.   

Q: Who do you think should lead DEI policy within an organisation?  

I see a lot of policies but one thing that does not come across is clarity over who is expected to do what. So, you get policies saying what the university should be doing – but what does that actually mean? Policies can also feel disconnected to reality. For example, DEI policies like to say that the organisation is diverse or inclusive, but that doesn’t always match the reality which can lead to the policy feeling incongruent with day-to-day experiences and a DEI policy being ignored.  

DEI policy needs to be led by the leadership, but with input by DEI practitioners who are hired for their expertise. There also needs to be sufficient clarity over the different responsibilities and expectations of people in difference roles and levels. Everyone is part of DEI, and DEI policies need to provide support and clarity of what that looks for that particular organisation. It is also important that people in the organisation know what it expected of them under any DEI policy and that they are supported in delivering that.  

Q: What is your biggest hope for the DEI profession?  

We need more professionalism without gatekeeping. We need clarity on expectations and how to manage the reality of the work, and to understand how to hold space when you cannot have an opinion because it is a polarised view, and by taking a position you could be alienating other people within the organisation, which could then be counter productive. We need more skills around that. 

Lived experience is great and creates passion but if you don’t have that ability to step beyond that personal lived experience, you are not necessarily doing your job as a DEI practitioner. 

I have a lot of hope for us as an industry to find our own voice that is not part of another profession. You can see it being pulled into being an HR element but the reality is it is not HR work. It is a completely different skillset but by being pulled into HR, it does not give us the space we need as an industry and can downplay the radical change that we are after. If organisations were doing what they were meant to be doing, we would not exist – but we do exist. So, we need to find that voice and I am hopeful that as an industry we will find that. 

Q: What is the one thing you feel has been most neglected in the world of DEI?  

I did my Master’s in organisational change and completed my research project and thesis on understanding DEI practitioners’ experiences within DEI teams, and how those experiences impact their ability to deliver change, taking a view that DEI is about organisational change and not an HR function. Based on this research, I believe the thing that is most neglected in DEI is DEI teams and the experiences of DEI practitioners – those paid to deliver DEI.  

Within DEI discussion, we don’t often talk about or focus enough on the people who are being paid to do this work and how they are supported. For example, resources is a massive issue and can create tension where there aren’t sufficient resources for all practitioners to receive the training and development opportunities they need. Another example, linked to lived experience, is how DEI practitioners interact and work together. One participant in my research spoke about how DEI was only ever inclusive for the right person, and that didn’t always include them because of their identity, regardless of what success they had in the DEI space. I think this links to how we deliver change and the backlash. 

The other part of my research demonstrated the important role of DEI team leaders. Appointing a head of a DEI team who had been involved in DEI work, and understood the realities and complexities involved, they were far more effective at leading a DEI team and created a much more harmonious environment that led to effective change. 

But when an organisation brought someone else in from a generic HR or other function, often as a promotion opportunity, but without direct DEI delivery experience or experience delivering the reality of DEI work, that created a lot more tension within the team. Suddenly there was a gap between the expertise of the team and the expertise of the leader. That led to a much more contentious, challenging environment, which negatively impacted their ability to deliver change.  

To be successful in delivering DEI change, we need expert DEI teams that are respected, supported and enabled. 

Q: If you could mandate, one thing for an organisations' DEI policy, what would it be?  

Do not promise you will change the world if you can’t deliver. DEI policy should be speaking to everyone, including white men who can sometimes feel targeted by DEI. Make it meaningful and speak to everyone.  

Q: What do you think the future holds for DEI? 

I don’t know. I have hope, though. There have been many ebbs and flows but I hope that people want change and the vast majority believe in a better, more inclusive future – and that requires specialists to help change organisations. 

For more information about any of the topics or ideas discussed in this interview, please get in touch for a complimentary one-to-one call.